Update: Elisabeth Fritzl “Mentally and Physically Frail”
Elisabeth at 15 years of age:
Further to my previous post…
Thetimes.co.za reports that Elisabeth Fritzl’s three captive children have been segregated and are being treated by child and youth psychologist Paulus Hochgatterer.
Hochgatterer says that “only very gradually are they being exposed to the outside world,” and their segregation will protect them from “the bewilderment and shock of being confronted with a world they knew little or nothing about for all those years…. Given the circumstances, they’re actually doing quite well.”
However, their mental and cognitive development will likely be impaired, he says.
Authorities are now looking for a special school for the three children who were imprisoned in the dungeon, and also for the three kids who lived upstairs with Josef and Rosemarie.
Berthold Kepplinger, of the psychiatric clinic in Mauer, has also spoken to each of the children.
The Daily Mail reports that Elisabeth, who is currently undergoing urgent medical treatment, is white-haired, mentally and physically frail, and traumatized.
While her 19-year-old daughter, Kerstin, is in “severe but stable condition, suffering from cramping fits caused by lack of oxygen.”
One police officer who saw Elisabeth after she gained freedom said: “She has been so starved of sunlight that her skin and hair were pure white and she had to shield her eyes from the light. She has been left badly nourished. It may take months and years for her to recover.”
Her daughter, 14-year-old Monika, who lived upstairs:
Her daughter, 16-year-old Lisa, who also lived upstairs:
The Fritzl Family Tree:
If you believe that Rosemarie Fritzl was unaware of the atrocities being committed directly under her feet, and considering that Josef Fritzl was their only source of food, can you imagine what would have happened if he had died? The bodies of Elisabeth and her children may have never been found.
[sources: thesun.co.uk , dailymail.co.uk, thetimes.co.za]
[please see my update on Josef Fritzl above.]
Filed under: Child Abuse, Life, Rants & Ramblings | Tagged: Anita V. Robeson, Austria, Child Abuse, Elisabeth Fritzl, Josef Fritzl, Life, rape, sociopaths
Perhaps the best thing for Elisabeth and those sibilings who were living with her would be death/sacrifice. I think assisted suicide should be given if they ask for it.
In respect to Joseph Fritzl, he’s no longer a threat to society so I don’t see the point in imprisoning him, perhaps the best thing for him should be a mental arrest until recovery is complete.
Good post. I was wondering where’d you get all the photos?
Reply from Anita V. Robeson:
See my sources, noted at the bottom of my post.
To “Anonymous”, your comment is outrageous!!! If I could, I would liken you to Josef Fritzl himself!!!
The depravity of man is incredible. Anonymous: maybe you need a mental arrest. Death/sacrifice? That’s all they deserve? Not a better life, a chance to be happy? Are you serious?
Anonymous: How do you know he is no longer a threat to society? As calculating and cunning as this man has been, and the fact that he was able to deceive everyone he knew for decades suggests he is a severe sociopath, age 73 or not.
Reply from Anita V. Robeson:
I agree with you completely! As you say, the man is a calculating, cunning sociopath and must be appropriately punished for his crimes against humanity.
i hope this man is confined to solidarity as long as he lives.
The best punishment for him is to put him in a cell, with
nothing else but a bed and some crappy food once a day.
Nothing else. And no one should talk to him, not even to
say hi. And I wish him to live for a hundred years more, just
to be punished for what he has done to all these innocent
poor people.
Anonymous are u really serious??? This man wrecked the
lives of at least 4 people. Not to mention his other 3 children
who lived upstairs. Do you really think that he shouldn’t be
punished for these crimes? Then everyone from now on will
feel completely free to capture anyone they like, as they will
know that nothing will happen to them when they get caught.
I would like to know what your opinion would be if you were
one of these kids, or if one of these kids was your brother
or sister. I hope no one else in the world thinks like you…
Really, it is not a matter of revenge, but this crime is beyond
imagination. This guy is not a human, he is even worse than
the most dangerous animal one could think of.
With all due respect, how can she possibly have a “normal” life? For goodness sake she was raped for 24yrs by her father, had 7 of his children and one of her babies was burned. She will never be the same and neither will her children!
Josef Fritzl, eat shit and die motherfuckers son of bitch!!!
I hope Josef Fritzl lives to be 100 years and I sincerely hope that he gets raped in jail every day of his remaining pitiful existence. As for Elisabeth and all her children, I wish them the very best that life has to offer.
Anonymous: Maybe you should take a pill or a whole bottle of pills, you are a sick moron, go assist yourself with suicide. As for Josef Fritzl, death is too good for him. He should be forced to live out the remainder of his days in a dark dungeon that is only four feet high and no bigger than the bathroom that his victims were forced to live in. Also, I do believe some torture is in order here as well.
Anonymous, what’s wrong with you?
I would remain “ANONYMOUS” too after making such a STUPID comment.
Forget your medication today???
I feel that Bad Karma should get him,and it will. I will not respond with evil thoughts or ‘ideas’ of what to do with this evil man,because thats what people want. But i do hope and pray the best for the children as well as Elisabeth.
As soon as i saw his picture, i felt uneasy and dirty. I started to tear up and evilness was surrounded by me. Usually my feelings and thoughts about a human being is right, and with this man…well .. lets just say he wasnt ‘himself’. I feel as the devil has embodied his soul and lead him to that double life. He was weak and couldnt fight it, and because of that he has BECOME less than a human being.
All i know is,God or whatever you want to believe in will have the best laid out for them in the near future. May God bless her and her children as well as the Mother of Elisabeth.
Anonymous: are you Josef Fritzl him self?
after all they’ve been through, elisabeth and her 3 captive children deserve better life than you have in mind….
During WWII, Amstetten had a horrific female concentration camp nearby. Unimaginable torture and depravity was inflicted on the female prisoners by the guards. Many of the Amstetten locals worked as guards. Fritzl was 10 years old when it was still running. Of course, the locals said nothing. No one stood up and said this is wrong. Many of the children of the camp guards still live in the town, but it is taboo to mention it. The entire Amstetten society psychology was forever wrecked by its complicity in the running of a German concentration camp. It’s easy to see how a young Fritzl monster was formed.
Women and children in Mauthausen-Gusen
Although the Mauthausen-Gusen camp complex was mostly a labour camp for men, a women’s camp was opened in Mauthausen, in September of 1944, with the first transport of female prisoners from Auschwitz. Eventually, more women and children came to Mauthausen from Ravensbruck, Bergen Belsen, Gross Rosen, and Buchenwald. With them came some female guards. Twenty are known to have served in the Mauthausen camp, and sixty in the whole camp complex. Female guards also staffed the Mauthausen sub-camps at Hirtenberg, Lenzing (the main women’s sub-camp in Austria), and St. Lambrecht. The Chief Overseers at Mauthausen were firstly Margarete Freinberger, and then Jane Bernigau. Of all the female Overseers who served in Mauthausen, almost all of them were recruited between September 1944, and November 1944, from Austrian cities and towns. In early April of 1945, at least 2,500 more female prisoners came from the female sub-camps at Amstetten, St. Lambrecht, Hirtenberg, and the Flossenbürg sub-camp at Freiberg. It is rumoured that Hildegard Lächert also served at Mauthausen.[32]
Common methods of extermination of prisoners, who were either sick, unfit for further labour or as a means of collective responsibility or after escape attempts included:
* Being beaten to death (by the SS and Kapos)
* Icy showers - some 3,000 inmates died of hypothermia - after having being forced to take an icy cold shower - and who were then left outside in cold weather.[43]
* Mass-shootings
* Medical experiments
o Aribert Heim, dubbed Doctor Death by the inmates, was there for seven weeks, which was enough to carry out his experiments[44]
o Another of the Nazi scientists to perform experiments on the inmates was Karl Gross, who purposely infected hundreds of prisoners with cholera and typhus in order to test his experimental vaccines on them. Between February 5, 1942, and mid-April of 1944, more than 1,500 prisoners were killed as a result of his experiments[45]
* Hanging
* Starvation
* Injections of phenol. (A group of 2,000 prisoners who applied to be transferred to the sanatorium were declared mentally sick and were killed by Dr. Ramsauer in the course of the H-13 action)[43]
* Drowning in large barrels of water (Gusen II)[46][47]
* Beating to death or starving to death in bunkers[48]
* Throwing the prisoners on the 380 volt electric barbed wire fence[48]
* Forcing prisoners outside the boundaries of the camp and then shooting them on the pretense (pretence) that they were attempting to escape[49]
He has disgraced all his children both with his wife and with Elisabeth. He has abused and disgraced Elisabeth. No one can know what goes on in Elisabeth’s head and perhaps no one will ever. It is bad enough to be abused by your own parent but it is too bad to be confined for 24 years. I believe that man does not deserve to ever see sunlight again just as he did to his own daughter. He was too selfish when he looked at his very beautiful daughter and could not imagine her being with any other man. True his name should be erased from those given to mankind.
I pity all his children for it is a big shame to be fathered by such an animal.
To Anonymus: you sound like a dangerous, sick person yourself - to judge by your comment.
By the way, how callous and indecent to publish pictures of the Fritzl children!
Isabel: In what way is it “callous and indecent to publish pictures of the Fritzl children”? What their father/grandfather did to their mother was “callous and indecent.” I have nothing but compassion for Elisabeth and the children she bore against her will.
Anita, it is calous and indecent to publish pictures of the Fritzl children because they are the innocent victims of this dreadful man. The world may know their names but we don’t need to know their faces. They will likely take on new identities but now we all know what they look like someone somewhere will recognise them and the media circus will follow them. If you compassion truely extends to Elisabeth and her children you will understand this, or are you just another of the ghouls that encourage the press to disrupt lives to feed your curiosity?
Assisted death for Elisabeth and her kids? You’re out of your mind. They have missed out on life for a long time. Now their life begins. And yes, it’s true Elisabeth and her kids will not have an easy time coming, they have to try. To suggest that she lived for 24 years only to come out and commit suicide is retarded. I hope she’ll make it. And I hope she will live some sort of life, whether it’s considered “normal” or not. Same goes for her 18 year old son: Lots of strength to him as well. I think the 5 year old and the upstairs kids will be ok….My biggest worry is Kerstin. May she live and become healthy again. She’s the one that got in JF’s way the first time (when she was born) and now she screwed him a second time. She’s the reason that they’re free. Kerstin deserves to live and experience a free life; she must not die….
Thank you Jane Bewick, for explaining to Anita my comment on spreading pictures around of the Fritzl children.
… though I do not agree with the last part you wrote, quote
” ,or are you just another of the ghouls ……”.
maybe anonymous should be locked in a dark cell with josef fritzl
fck u Anonymous! ur my child!! i luv fckin ur mom basterd!!! now i wana fck u… whr r u basterd??
and fo tht sik 73 year old PIG!! eat shytt fckin basterd!! evilest mofokers worldwide!! wish i cud shove up a snooker stick up his crack thru his skull!! motherfckr!!!! Fck all u faggot if u go against me .. i care a shyt…!!!
wish anonymous gets locked with this sik fck for 50 years!!! bet he will fck the ass of tht corpse for revenge !! hahahahahaaaa!!!!
Anonymous - Your comment is insane. You want to kill the victims and treat the evil monster? You have truly faulty thinking and should be ashamed to have posted such a cruel comment.
Furthermore, publishing the photos of the children is unnecessary and callous.
May God save all the innocent souls involved in this nightmare. Anonymous, huh, it sounds like you agree with what Josef has done. If you are not Josef himself it sounds like you are a pedophile. For you to say that Josef deserves treatment and the victims deserve the right to assisted suicide screams you have deep seeded problems and a twisted sense of justice. How do you know that he is no longer a threat? 24 YEARS HE PLAYED GOD! NO ONE AND I MEAN NO ONE WITH A SOUL WOULD CONDONE, OR DEFEND THIS MAN OR HIS BEHAVIOR! Get some help and if you are going to post such a response have the guts to put your name on it.
Patty R
Minneapolis MN
This is as far the sickest person ive ever heard about. What kind of animal rapes her daughter and locks her up for 24 years?! that just the sickest thing ever. I hope that bastard burns in hell. Im just waiting for him to go to prision…i heard the prisioners are waiting for him anxiously over there, i hope he gets rape and that they beat that scum to death.
Death is too good for Josef Fritzl who should be locked in a cell, alone. Preferably solitary confinement for a number of years. This is what he did to his poor children. It’s exactly what he deserves himself. The death penalty is the easy way out for people like Fritzl. Make him suffer like he’s made others suffer for so long.
As for the first posting at the top of this list, you’re obviously a few stools short of a sushi bar mate. The owner of this blog ought to have you removed. You sound like you want to pin a medal on Fritzl and are blaming the victims. You’re on sick dude.
Oh and by the way anonymous. What the fuck is a mental arrest anyway?
You fuckin’ moron!
Who is the anonymous lunatic that wrote the first comment? It is either a completely sick bastard or some kid’s idea of a joke. For Fritzi, there is no just punishment, none. Except maybe having to go through solitary for the rest of his remaining years. His poor daughter, she was probably emotionally broken many years ago. What is this sick twisted moron’s defense going to be? That he was the mentally sick one? Six lives ruined, one life taken. The court should show him no mercy, God willing he will get serious prison time. Death would be too kind. He needs to be miserable for the rest of his life. Why would any human being do something so horrible? It is really beyond my imagination.
Whats wrong with you people. He should be tortured to death!
the Anonymous fuker asshole on top of dis page… i hope it happens to u..for sayin that he shldn be imprisoned…wht the fuk is rong with you… u inhumane Bastard….
To anonymous:
I bet you are the accomplice the police must be searching for. Your opinion is outrageous and uncalled for. Who are you to condemn others to death especially, under the given circumstances. These victims deserve a life and a quality one as such.
Why don’t you build your own dungeon lock yourself up for only 1 day and night and have a feeling of it. Think again and be serious
I concur Jane Bewick and Isabel. Its out of touch to display the pictures of this children on this blog. It will complicate and delay their healing process. Surely the blog owners can do better than this.
First get rid of the photos then get rid of the anonymous comments, they suck!
He wasn’t exactly the worst kind of human.
He did not kill them !
There are plenty of parents that kill their children, and you never find out.
He did take Kirsten to hospital, risking a lot, while he could have killed that unconscious girl easily.
He maintained three kids upstairs even when it would make him a lot less suspicious when he would choose not to.
On average year there are some 90,000 rapes in USA, 1 in 1500 females gets raped - and these are reported numbers only !
If this crime had occurred in, for example, Saudi Arabia or China, Josef Fritzl would have been tried and executed in a few months at most. I know most people think death is too good for this monster, but some countries show no mercy.
Now, the Austrian taxpayers will have to pay for his upkeep in some local prison while Elisabeth and the rest of her family ( not too sure about Josef’s wife Rosemarie though) remain psychologically scarred for life.
Josef Fritzl, BURN IN HELL!!
Elisabeth Fritzl, God bless you and the rest of your family.
@ Theav (7:04) : O, here we go…Here’s another one of those people who wants to side in with Fritzl. There’s another one of those idiots on Youtube, even making a tribute video for this disgusting pig. Theav, you just don’t get it, do you…..24 years in a freaking cave and yet you’re sitting there saying: “well, at least he didn’t kill them”…Moron.
Carl - In Saudi Arabia and China women are still considered the lesser species.
Especially in Saudi Arabia - where a woman can be stoned to death for being raped - if her family does´t kill her before the village-folk have gathered enough stones to lynch her - in order to avoid the shame she has caused her family by letting herself get raped.
And Saudis are never brought to justice for exploiting, raping, beating or even killing their female servants - these days mostly women from poor countries such as the Philippines.
In parts of China there is a vast shortage of women, because the female babies get killed after birth - sons are preferred. Those sons therefore then can´t find wives.
I think the tax-payers money would be well spent in this case - at least if Fritzl is kept in an isolation cell for the rest of his days, so he has plenty of time to feel what it´s like.
I sincerely join your best wishes for the family.
Hans Pijl, I think it is not fair of you to accuse Theav of taking sides with Fritzl, and I don´t see why you have to insult him.
I´m surprised at how much and how easily people swear and insult eachother on the internet when they disagree.
But perhaps that´s just me turning less aggressive with age
(I could still win a prize in a swearing & insulting contest, though…
…. if I wanted to)
This story is one of the most tragic stories I’ve ever come across.
I hope the Austrian social agencies will the best care for Elisabeth and her children need to recover from this unbelievable horrific abuse at the hand of her own father.
I can’t believe Elisabeth mother didn’t have some clue that something wasn’t right.
Elisabeth’s father should be placed in a dungeon without sunlight for the rest of his life.
This man will burn in hell.
How can ordinary people help Elisabeth and her children.
Patricia.
Because, Isabel, theav was saying (about Josef Fritzl) that “He wasn’t exactly the worst kind of human.” The man took stole 24 years of his daughter’s life, stole the ENTIRE youths of the 19, 18 and 5 year old and raped his daughter (and god knows who else) in the process continuously for 24 years! That upsets me. And anyone that tries to say: “Awww, the man wasn’t THAT bad” to me, is a moron. Don’t mean to hurt people’s feelings but that’s what I think. Sorry.
And, Patricia, I don’t know what we could do for these people. Other than hope. As I said earlier, I think the “upstairs kids” will be ok….I also think the 5 year old will be allright. My biggest concern go out to Stefan and Kerstin. Kerstin especially because she’s sick. And of course to Elisabeth herself who I think is a very strong woman. I do think the media should leave them alone so they can heal. Yet I also think they should know that there are people that care and are interested in their well being…..Kind of a paradox.
i truly agree that this man should be dealt the worse possible punishment given other than death. That would be to easy. I hurt for elisabeth and her children, Especially due to the fact that this is her father, the one who should have been her protecter not her torturer. All we can do for these people is pray that they find a way to overcome this horror and slowy adjust to being free and able to live.
Elisabeth survived 24 yrs, that is 8760 days of dealing with her father, conceiving and giving birth to seven children.
I would say that forever and a day would not be suffering for that man.
This is a reply to Anonymous: I really don’t see where you get off stating these people should die or sacrifice themselves. they are innocent people who were dealt one hell of a bad life. You must think like the father did for you to say with a good concience that he should have the ability to recover from his mental state. I don’t give a F@*%^ what that man went through as a child, There are no excuses for what he has done and you can best believe he will be JUDGED when the time comes. As for the daughter and her children, they should be able to have the opprotunity to be able to try and live a happy life and try to overcome all of their fears. The father shows absolutely no remorse in what he has done.
With regard to Joe’s interesting history of the concentration camps around Armstetten, did anyone notice the rows the Star of David in the dungeon? They’re up on a wall in one of the photos. What could that possibly mean? Is it just another example of sick Fritzl’s idea of humor?
And I agree on the general concensus that anonymous and theav are morons.
This story has been inexplicable to me!!. Fritzl should be tortoured and locked up in prison with a couple of guys. So he can know how it felt to get raped.
My advice for Fritzl would be: If you drop the soap in the shower — DONT PIC IT UP!!
I ALSO FEEL THE PAIN FOR THE KIDS AND ELIZABETH I PERSONTLY KNOW HOW IT FEEL TO BE ABUSED BY YOUR FATHER ,I HAVE ALOT OF EMPATHY FOR HER AS FOR THE FATHER I HOPE HES LOCKED IN A CORNER AND NOT ABLE TO EAT PEE AND SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY FOR THE NEXT 24 YRS. AND THEN U MAY CONSIDER ON LETING HIM OUT (IF ALIVE)REGARDING TO ROSE MARIE IT WILL GAIN ATTENTION IF YOU MAKE THIS A HORROR FILM A TRUE STORY ,AND PUT THE CELLER/ HOME IN A PUBLIC MUSEAM THIS WAY THE WORLD WILL KNOW WHO WAS JOSEF AND ELIZABETH FRITZL AND KIDS…………………………………..(pLIZ RESPOND FEED BACK IS WELCOMED)
I hope the Thai authorities are looking closely at this case. During his 3-week visit there, he’d disappear and have the time of his life, according to the news media. So, we all know what he was doing. Wouldn’t be wonderful if he could be extradited to a miserable Thai prison for whatever atrocities he may have commited there?
Sir/Madam,
Are you a blithering idiot, or does it just seem that way?
I have never been keen on the death penalty, but that now seems to be blithering idiocy on my part. Would that this appalling crime had been committed in Texas.
Isabel, do you really believe it is “callous and indecent” to include photos of two of Elsabeth’s children?
Evidently, as Anita Robeson has cited in her sources, she is not the first to publish photos of two of the Fritzl children. Even so, there seems no reason for self-righteously proclaiming the impropriety of printing these photos.
Indeed, you looked at them and, if given a choice in the matter (to view them or to decline the opportunity), I wager you would choose the former.
The atrocities committed by Josef Fritzl fall beyond the borders of decency. The story in itself cries out for examination — from every angle. We are all curious and if we are honest, we would admit we wonder about the children who were born from this unnatural sexual union! If having their photos published were the only problem with which the Fritzl kids had to contend they would be quite fortunate.
Reply from Anita V. Robeson:
Thanks, Gideon. I appreciate your support.
I don’t quite believe that her mother didn’t know the truth!!!
THe father should be lock forever!!!
he should be in hell!
This horror story, has been wrenching at my heart ever since I first heard it on the news and in the papers. Elizabeth and the children’s plight over the past 24 years is mind-numbing, I still can’t get over it.
To Josef: I don’t care one bit what happens to you (as long as its not in tune with that paedophile ‘anonymous’s ‘ recommendation)
To Elizabeth and family: You are so strong to have survived for so long. I’m sure you could have ended things yourself/selves at times. Millions of people are overjoyed at your freedom. I hope (perhaps as you have hoped) that you remain strong enough to heal and recover from this harrowing ordeal and enjoy the life you should of.
I agree with almost all of you that the ‘father’ is a total rat bag and deserves the worst punishment possible. It costs a lot to keep people in prison and much of it is to try to rehabilitate them. He is past that, if he ever could have been. He should be put away at the lowest cost possible to keep him from causing more harm that he has already
I do not blame Elisabeth’s mother in any way. I have read a lot about this and believe that she did not know what was going on. She was only seventeen when she married and has been under a dictatorship ever since.
I am concerned for the health of all of them. Even the ones living ‘normal’ lives are still children caused by incest and that is not allowed for good reason. Although the little boy has time on his side for catching up with other children he will be very lucky if he does. His mother had already been locked up for half of her life when she became pregnant with him. She is so damaged now she was probably a good way towards that when he was born.
I hope Elisabeth and her children, particularly the ones locked up with her, are looked after by the most caring people in the world. They deserve all the love they can get.
Maybe am too terrified of this beast Josef Fritzl. Am beginning to imagine he abused Elisabeth’s daughter as well and she, having spent all her years underground, could not handle the pregnancy and ended up ill. Anything is possible with this monster’s behaviour. Oh God, I do not want to believe it but find it a burden on my heart. I is most likely though the doctors cannot release such information.
Reply from Anita V. Robeson:
Alice: This has been preying on my heart and mind as well. And you make a good point. It’s very likely Josef Fritzl was also abusing Elisabeth’s daughters. Sexual abuse tends to be a never-ending cycle with sociopathic pedophiles. We can only hope he will be locked away until he dies.
Such a monster as Josef Fritzl carries shame to all the human race. But how many of similar cases may currently exist in Austria (or elsewhere) and that we will learn on them only in the years to come?
Of course i’d prefer to spend 24 years in a cave over getting killed. Living person can still make, if nothing else, a suicide, preferably in a way that takes his captor’s life as well ; a dead man does not have, believe it or not, Pijl, any options.
She did have possibility to fight, or try to make use of his ego, sexual stamina.
Rumsfeld, GWB made worse crimes than he did.
“She did have possibility to fight”….Do I detect a slight undertone here, Theav? A hidden message? Do I read between the lines that you are saying that this whole ordeal, was really partly Elisabeth’s own fault, too? Because she didn’t fight back? My apologies in advance to Isabel, but Theav….You’re a bigger moron than I first imagined….
Can you explain how Elisabeth should have, in your opinion, made “use of JF’s sexual stamina”? I just don’t get that one….
I hope Elisabeth and her kids can recover effectively. Josef Fritzl should be kept away from humans for the rest of his natural life, as he does not appear to be human. Its things like this that makes me think a punishment like caning at random times of the day or night should be applied to Josef over the first 24 years of a life jail sentence.
I believe in an “Eye for and Eye.” Place him in a cellar just like that for the next 24 years. And instead of rape(that would just satisfy him, duh), cut of his manhood and put it in a blender. That’s not capital punishment. It should be that punishment multiplied 8 times since there were 8 victims.(Elisabeth and her 7 children). So make it 24 years multiplied by 8= 192years.
Which is impossible therefore stab him 192 times till he die suffering then.
Perhaps all of you need some kind of “treatment” judging by your comments here. The investigation had just began, but you all already “know” “the truth”.
Who told you that Elizabeth did not want to be the mistress of her father? After all, do you know anything about this family? WHAT DO YOU KNOW?
Just a few questions to consider before publishing your brilliant conclusions about this case:
1) The one I already asked in my previous comment
2) Is Elizabeth really the natural daughter of Josef?
3) The mother’s role in this story. Who is she? Do you know for sure that she did not push her daughter(?) in her husband’s bed?
4) Who is Josef Fritzl? Is he the only person who is to “blame” for what happened? Was he sexually abused by his mother? His father? Did he have a mother or a father? Brothers, sisters? Is he a son of his own grandfather?…
Some important questions that need to be answered. But perhaps you don’t want to ask these questions? Perhaps you don’t want to “complicate” the issue which seems so simple to you? Why not? Are you afraid? What are you afraid of?
How about a “treatment” for yourself? You, who know everything and so sure of your own righteousness? You, who know where is “right” and where is “wrong”. How about a little treatment for you who can so easily condemn someone?
Perhaps Fritzl is a “monster”, but you are no better than him. It is important to remember this anytime you get excited about stories of this kind. Ask yourself why you are so excited. Ask for “treatment”.
I wonder how the 3 upstairs children are doing? Are they in a foster home now ? I know this would be devastating to them too, their world is turned upside down from everything they thought to be true and wasnt. Plus I hope he wasnt molesting them or the 3 in the basement. Mabe he was supposedly going to free elisabeth this summer so he could replace her with a new cellar dwellar.????Its possible, anything is with that devil who will hopefully live out the reast of his life in torment and torture and then spend eternity in HELL.
The children , from the photos, look normal, I thought that incestuous children had deformities, etc but i guess it must just be more likely to happen
WIth DNA technology advancing mabe someday there will be a way to genetically test people before they even conceive children to show if they could possibly carry a gene that creates people like josef fritzl and any other kind of murderer, rapist, abuser, (if there was a gene that makes people like that? (nature/nurture)? Was josef Fritzl created into this monstrous person or was he born that way?
Shelli,
All children of Josef Fritzl carry “the rapist gene” of their father. Do you suggest that it should be forbidden to them to conceive children?
Do you belive in “Progress”? Do you think that technological advances will solve all problems of humanity and mysteries of this life?
What is not “monstrous” to you? Isn’t life in itself “monstrous”?
To Hans Pijl,
it seems that Theav is trying to express his native words in English or else American, bless him for trying.
Things can go wrong when you try.
I do not think he is on the predator´s side.
Besides, theav seems quite young and wondering.
He does understand that one does want to survive, however.
We all have strong opinions, until cornered with no bloody way to get out.
I still hold, that calling a person a moron is a different thing from calling their comments moronic. One refers to comments, not to people, unless they scream for it.
Night-night from here,
fare the well
Andre - quote “what will we learn…”
Nothing, nothing at all.
Except to try and control our own devils, or basis instincts, and treat others around us as we wish to be treated ourselves.
… because that is the only thing that sets us apart from the rest of the animal world.
Night-night again
from “good old” Europe
My native language is not English either, Isabel….I’m Dutch, but live in the US…It seems to me that Theav’s English is well enough and professional enough for an intelligent conversation, but maybe I am wrong….We’ll give him/her a chance to reply, what do you say….My question about JF’s sexual stamina still stands…..
Guilty until proven innocent, huh?
Just another proof of our own “monstrousity”. Who is more mad here: Fritzl or the mob who wants to lynch him without a trial?
We are all mad living in a mad world. “Treat others as you wish to treated yourself” are just words that have no meaning. Words in this world are separated from things and this separation is complete, total. Such old banalities no longer serve to describe the essence of things, no one knows what this life is really about, so who are we to judge Fritzl, even if he is “guilty”? To what degree are we responsible for what we do? Can you control your own madness? Perhaps you don’t consider yourself mad? You are “normal”, aren’t you? Just wait and see where this “normality” will lead you. Fritzl is just another “normal” guy, your neighbor, your drinking pal, your best buddy… Fritzl is you, you may become him at any moment and it’s not up to you to decide, no matter how confident you are right now of your capability to control your actions. You can not control anything, you are just another worm in pain, just another scared rat gone mad from the fear of the unknown.
It does not matter what happens now with Fritzl. You can burn him alive, put him in prison for the rest of his life, set him free… It will not change anything. It will not change l a c o n d it i o n h u m a i n e.
Hans Pijl, I’m with you… you have every right to call Theav a moron, especially when he’s spoken like a true moron… Actually I can think of worse? Theav, your comment about not being the worst human alive and that he didn’t kill them? That would have been much kinder than the hell he put Elisabeth and her children through.. I don’t think you’re thinking straight, at all or just trying to stir the pot.
Josef Fritzl, yes, should be incarcerated for hmm, let’s give him 27 years.. until his 100th, put him in a 5F6” windowless chamber, canned food.. and maybe a willing man with a bar of soap.
But we don’t want him to die yet, that’s just too easy.
This story has been constantly on my mind since coming to light… there are no words to express the evil conjured up by this ”thing”… so premeditated aswell.. applying to the council for building approvals in 1978 (two years after he started raping Elisabeth) then building in 1983 (the year before she went missing).
My prayers and thoughts are with Elisabeth F and her children.. may god bless them.. I hope they find some sort of peace in their new lives and that Kerstin pulls through… It’s just such a mess. Devastating..
I also can’t believe after “running away” that none of Elisabeths close friends thought it was strange that they never heard from her again.. so many alarm bells in hindsight.. it’s so horrific.
One more thing; all your comments on here reinstate my feelings that MOST human beings are compassionate.
I too saw the idiots on youtube starting up Josef Fritzl fan pages.. it’s deflating and depressing to know there are some very dark and twisted people in this world, but the majority I like to believe are good…
I don’t think your ‘”curiosity” about this story makes you someone that needs to seek “professional help” as quoted above (okay, maybe for some like anon and Theav).
I think most of these comments represent people that do actually care about the welfare of these victims.. Peace…
Kirsty,
How do you know what is “good” for the “victims”? Maybe they prefer to live the way they lived until now? But you know what’s “good” for others, don’t you? Just like you know who is “good” and who is “dark and twisted”?
Perhaps it’s time to realize that your “goodness” is nothing but gross ignorance.
I really think that Austrian Social Services & the same family failed on Elisabeth & the kids. I read somewhere “…there was no reason to be suspicious of him or his family to take care of the threee children when Mr. Fritzl claimed that his daughter had run away with a sect & later had left them at their door… ” Blah-blah-blah… EXCUSE ME!!!
C’mon!!! The guy is said to humilliate his wife in front of others by stating that “they did not have sex and so on…” And just the fact of being abusive to his wife makes him the perfect candidate for having an extramarital affair.
I think when the first kid “was left upstairs with a note from her mom”, even so… Somebody could have connected the dots, or at least be suspicious of a man who was tyrannical & joked about being sexually abandoned by his aging wife.
Couldn’t anybody think of him as someone who might have been having an extramarital affair and maybe procreating children with a younger woman? Okay, nobody would have thought that that woman could possibly be Elisabeth but at least just any other woman.
I think in any country when things are related to kids welfare, no measurements can be too exagerated. If he had nothing to hide, he would have not declined to do the DNA test.
Imagine, if they had done the testing with the second child, things would have surfaced in half of the time…
However, things did not happen that way…. So, let me shut up and celebrate the life of every single kid who was bore in that cellar. Yes, even though they have been the result of a series of incestuos rapes (I hate to use the word “relationship” in cases like this one), they are like anyone of us.
And to Elisabeth, what can I say? No matter what your emotional state has been for all these years, that I am sure was deep frustration, sadness, anger, You are a hero and you don’t even know it yet. Your life is so meaningful. There is no justice for you who were deprived of your youth by such a sinister man, your own father. That father who started steeling your youth from the moment the idea of raping you crossed his depraved mind. There is no justice that can give you back what he took from you. NEVERTHELESS, your life has to be of some significance other than just being a victim. I AM SURE OF THAT. YOU ARE AN INSPIRATION FOR ALL THOSE WHO SUFFER IN SILENCE.
S. Lagge,
How do you know that she did not enjoy it? Do you read other people’s mind?
This man Fritzl, should be given a tour all around the world and young and old people so they can trow shits and spits in his face.
calm down,
One, the fact that you rape someone and his/her body responds like “enjoyment” doesn’t make it any less of a violation & trauma. Let me tell you, if a man rapes a young teenage boy, that boy will likely experience having an erection. Does that mean the victim is gay or that he is “enjoying it? NOPE!!!! Mentally & emotionally, he is NOT.
Two, no woman can enjoy being held hostage in a cellar or anywhere. And even if she were being raped & “enjoying it” (as you imply) that doesn’t make it right.
How can that be enjoyable, having kids who died, loosing your teeth out of starvation, loosing your good looks and youth, not having oxygen, becoming hunched, having no life as woman, so on and so on? OBVIOUSLY, she wasn’t enjoying it because the monster had to deprive her of her freedom. Meaning, SHE WAS NOT ENJOYING IT PERIOD.
And last, when she was young she was hot. She could have gotten a cute Austrian young boy (or many). NOW, THAT’S ENJOYABLE!!! The father was an old guy already. Are you a Guy BTW? ‘Cuz guys always WANT TO THINK that “they age gracefully and desirable”. Well, WAKE UP!!! Men also age and become UNDESIRABLE.
Have U raped somebody or have U been raped that U seem “to know” so much about people’s minds?
My knowledge is from books and working experiences(if you care to know).
Calm Down,
I am slightly amused reading all your posts on this forum.. haha… you have no idea.. maybe the only person that’s a little clueless on the Fritzl case is yourself. You have so many questions.. Why don’t you do a little reading and catch up on some facts about it… then get back to us.. as everyone else seems to know what’s going on in here at this stage except for you.. hahaha.. priceless!
Let me quote your best line calmdown…
“Fritzl is you, you may become him at any moment and it’s not up to you to decide, no matter how confident you are right now of your capability to control your actions. You can not control anything, you are just another worm in pain, just another scared rat gone mad from the fear of the unknown.”"
Ummm???
HAHAHAHAHA!! Calm down.. are you a scared little worm? Sounds like you need to investigate the story a bit more and you may also need some professional help for your mental condition because you’re just about to crack!
Don’t forget there’s a lot of worms out there too! lol…
My thoughts and prayers are with Elisabeth and her children…
Calm Down,
To answer your questions…
1) No, Elisabeth did not want to be her father’s mistress. She ran away from home twice because of the abuse. She was brought back twice by the authorities. She stated to authorities that she didn’t tell anyone that she had been raped by her father when she was 11 years old because she felt too shamed. Josef is a convicted rapist. The woman he raped at knife-point did not enjoy it or ask for it either… in fact she went to authorities and helped them put him in prison, just has his daughter is finally getting the opportunity to do. Elisabeth was drugged and handcuffed and chained in the basement. I’m not sure how you could think she wanted this treatment.
2) It doesn’t matter if Elisabeth is really the natural daughter or Josef or not. She was raised by him as his daughter. Raping your daughter, natural or not, is a crime and just as traumatic for the victim. Ask the French woman Lydia who underwent the same experience for 28 years at the hands of her adoptive father.
3) Yes, we know for sure that the mother (Rosemarie) did not push her daughter (Elisabeth) into her husband’s bed. Elisabeth has stated to the authoritites that her mother did NOT know anything about the sexual abuse.
4) Yes, Jospef’s mother beat him. But it doesn’t matter if Josef was abused, or if (as you ask) he could be the son of his grandfather. He had a choice in continuing the abuse cycle or not. Other people are abused and do not abuse their children. Other people are abused and do not become rapists.
Yes it is true we do not know for sure how we ourselves would react under bad or abusive circumstances. You do have a point there. Mass witchhunts and lynchings are never good, even if the person is clearly guilty. We will let the Austrian authorities deal with his situation. However, I am thankful for forum’s like this so people can express their outrage.
The irony in this is that the judge let Josef off with only 18 months when he was convicted of rape the first time. The judge thought he should be allowed to return to his family of a wife and 4 kids. If he had been given life in prison (as I think all rapists should) this would never have happened.
Some good news finally? I just read that Kerstin was doing better and is out of life threatening danger, according to two sources, one Dutch and one British. Could this be true? I hope so…She’s got 80 more years to live and those 80 years should be as close to a normal life as possible. @ “calm down”: I know, “calm down”, I know. You’d nag something like “what is normal anyway” and bla bla bla. You’re a moron too. Spending your entire life in a cellar sure isn’t my idea of normality. But anyway, arguing about that isn’t worth my effort. So all I have left to say is: “You go, Kerstin….You go!”
Great news about Kerstin! Thanks for the update Hans.
Yes, I’m excited. http://www.derstandard.at from Austria also says she’s improved. It would be too cool if she didn’t die, got better and would get back together with her Mom and siblings, right? I cannot even think about what Elisabeth would have to go through if her daugther wouldn’t make it….There’s already been enough.
First of all, I would like to say that Elisabeth is truly a beautiful and astounding woman; regardless of the physical condition that she is currently in. She did the best that she could for her children, given the circumstances she was in and seems to have always had their mental well-being at the top of her list.
Being a mother myself, who doesn’t typically like to “sugar coat” things for my kids; the fact that she tried so hard to make them believe that their life was “normal” is worthy of some type of Medal of Honor.
My heart goes out to her and those children. I pray that Kerstin pulls through and has the opportunity to know how much of a hero she truly is for rescuing them.
Dear all,
Please note that I am not affirming nor denying anything. I took upon myself the role of “Devil’s advocate” because someone has to do it.
I repeat the most important question: WHAT DO YOU KNOW? The whole accusation rests on words of Elisabeth and the “confession” of Fritzl. Now, I’m asking you: can the rape of Elisabeth by her father be proven beyond the reasonable doubt? You can not (unfortunately?) condemn a man just because the alleged victim says he raped her. You need evidence of rape, you need witnesses and, as you know, it is very problematic to find them in this case. In other words, until the fact of rape is proven beyond the reasonable doubt you can not talk about rape. This is ABC of justice and, if you pretend to be impartial, you should consider that THE FACT OF RAPE HAD NOT BEEN PROVEN AND PROBABLY WILL NEVER BE.
Further, Elisabeth stated that her mother did not know about her rape and imrisonment. Now I’m asking you: how does she know what her mother knew or not if she did not see her (allegedly) for at least 24 years? Any reasonable human being will be surprised upon hearing such statements. Besides, (and this is also very important) any words of a woman who just spent 24 years in a cellar (voluntarily or not) should be regarded with a critical eye.
I can go on, but I’ll stop here. My point is: there are many difficulties in this case and only long and careful examination can perhaps resolve some of them. The ordeal lasted at least 24 years, so the investigation should take up at least as long. That is, of course, if you want to arrive to truth about Fritzl family.
It is too easy to let your emotions overwhelm your reason. Please remember that Josef Fritzl is inocent until proven guilty. HIS GUILT HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN. Dixi
Hey calm down: “Devil’s advocate.” Now that’s accurate! Josef Fritzl would be lucky to have you on his legal team. But, try as you might to humanize the monster that he is, nothing will change my mind. He’s most certainly guilty and doesn’t deserve one iota of compassion. According to the dailyrecord.co.uk: “The evil 73-year-old has already confessed to incest, rape and keeping Elisabeth and three of their children in a dungeon.” What other evidence do you require?
Anita,
I am not trying to change your mind. All I am saying that the man deserves a fair trial after a long and careful investigation, just like any man (woman) does. You can not investigate with emotions and preconceived ideas. I may seem cold-blooded and cynical to you, but professionalism in any field requires precisely this: cold blood, reason and impartiality.
Anita,
Look, the man is 73 years old. Pretty old, no? He may suffer from many ills of such an old age, from dementia, for example. People who suffer from dementia have problems with memory. Once again, I am not affirming anything, but it is obvious that the man should go through psychiatric evaluation. And not only him, - the whole family should be evaluated by different psychiatrists for a very long period of time.
I have another prime candidate for someone who should be evaluated by different psychiatrists for a very long period of time….Any guesses?
Well maybe we’ll lock YOU up in a cellar for 24 years, rape you, and then tell you to commit suicide. Then you can talk you egotist pig. Shutup it wasn’t you in that cellar
Calm Down:
I realize that you are trying to be the voice of reason in proclaiming Fritzl’s right to a fair trial. But it also seems like you are trying to prove innocent a professed guilty man. He confessed. And yes, we could ask nonsense questions like “was Josef Fritzl drugged or coerced into confessing to the imprisonment of his daughter?”… see, I just made that up on the spot! I can think of endless questions that could be asked, but should they be asked? I was under the impression that when someone confesses to a crime and proceeds to produce loads of evidence, the case is pretty much wrapped up. Why question any further if there is no reason to? Wouldn’t that only further torment Elisabeth and her children?
And just a side note… to quote you, you wrote that: “It is important to remember this anytime you get excited about stories of this kind. Ask yourself why you are so excited. Ask for “treatment”.” — This is funny, because it seems to me that you are also “exicted” about this story, as you have been talking on and apparently checking this board for replies because you have made several replies yourself. Perhaps you should ask for “treatment” yourself, since you are also quite wrapped up and “exited” about this story.
Since you are obviously just so much better than everyone on this board (as you imply through your self-righteous posts), why do you continue to argue with people who you apparently think are stupid, or at least lesser than you?
PS- You need not reply to me personally, Calm Down, because I will most likely not be back to check for it. It turns out that I am not as “excited” about the story as you.
Look at everyone fighting. The punishment for an act should be a progressive one. Josef Fritzl cannot be fixed, and the damage he has done cannot be undone. There is not suitable punishment available. They should torture him, slowly. They should tie him up, and lock him in a room with a different convicted pyschopath/rapist every day, and let them have their way with him. They should slice open his scrotum and remove his testicles, letting them hang down, so they’re still attatched, while dipping one in sulphuric acid, and holding one above a burning candle. They should feed him daily to keep him alive. They should pierce 50 fishing hooks through each cheek and eyelid, and have them ripped out all at the same time. They should do their best to keep him alive while the torture prevails.
L.,
I’am somewhat surprised by your comments. It is suprising that in the 21 century there are still people who believe that “confession” is enough to condemn someone. Let me remind you that there are plenty of cases when people “confessed” for the crimes they have not commited. The most striking case, for example, is the case of a Russian serial killer Chikatilo: numerous men “confessed” and were executed before the authorities found out who the real killer was. I can give you hundreds of examples of this kind.
As for the rest of your “arguments” all I can say that I don’t respond to personal attacks.
Hans,
Just remember that tomorrow it may be you who will be accused of rape. You might even “confess”. Millions of men are accused every year of rape. Millions, but only a few had actually done it. The rest are accused because their “victims” wanted some kind of revenge. It’s important to keep it in mind every time the media sets off another mass hysteria.
“Calm down”-
Answer me this: if Elisabeth was having a consensual relationship with her father, why in the hell would she lie after 24 years and say that he has been raping her since she was 11? What possible motivation could she have?
And you say that there is no evidence? Yes, I guess evidence is hard to see when you walk around with your eyes and ears closed off to it. Josef Fritzl has CONFESSED to drugging her and locking her away in the cellar with their children for 24 years. There is DNA evidence that the children are his, and he has also confessed to fathering them. They are physical evidence enough that he raped her, unless you think she was happy to give birth six times in a small cellar room without a doctor present. There’s also the physcial deterioration that she and her children have undergone after years in the cellar without sunlight or space to grow, which doctors have confirmed. And let’s not forget the electronic door to which Josef alone had the code to get in, and gave said code to the police.
Your idea of logic is absurd. You state that no one can judge because no one can know what really happened unless they were there. Great news for all criminals, though- they can commit a crime, confess to said crime, have victim CONFIRM said crime both physically and with testimony, and still be considered “innocent” as long as there are no other eye-witnesses or videotapes around.
I’m fairly certain that you only made the comments you did because you’re desperate for attention (I was snorting with laughter at your first couple of posts, when no one was responding to you and you were clearly becoming more determined to get noticed and so started directing challenges at people who had JUST posted). However, that doesn’t make your attempt at defending this man any less disgusting. If anything, it makes you a bit of a creep, using this tragedy to try and get a rise out of people.
Walla,
I already explained my position on “confessions” and do not think that much could be added to this issue. Harvey Oswald “confessed” to killing JFK, many serial killers “confess” to having murdered many more victims than they actually did, in Soviet Union thousands of people were “confessing” to having conspired against the life of comrade Stalin… If “confession” represents for you the most reliable evidence there can be, then you are obviously very naive.
I do not want to repeat myself. I never said that Elisabeth lied. I said that there is a possibility that she might be lying. Do you feel the difference? You are asking me about the reasons she might have to lie. Well, there could be many reasons. There is a possibility that she seduced her father and right now Fritzl takes up everything upon himself in order not to complicate her life. Do you deny that such possibility exist?
Look, I don’t really care if you call me “disgusting”, “a creep”, or any other name. I am not asking for sympathy here or anywhere. I’m simply telling you that you don’t know anything, so all your attempts to evaluate the situation about which you know nothing look ridiculous most of the time, but sometimes may become dangerous. Millions of innocent men are accused and executed after a speedy trial by people like you who made up their mind right from the start after having read couple of articles in sensationalist media. Now, that is not to say that Josef Fritzl is innocent, but for you it is the same thing. You know why? I’ll tell you why: it is because you can not even support the idea of an opinion different from yours.
I’m sure you would gladly execute all those “disgusting creeps” that disagree with you. What a pity that the world is not inhabited by people who think only the way you do, right?
If these are truly the facts I’ve been reading in the news, then I agree this monster does not deserve to see the light of day again. Through being such a monster he has forfeited his status as a human in this life. Humans do not behave as monsters, it is one of the things that sets us apart from animals - in fact, animals behave better than this!
I can hardly just read about this case without tears forming in my eyes. It is extremely heartbreaking.
I am amazed at how strong Elisabeth must be somehow on the inside to have survived this at all, and to have brought children out of it with her. Some people kill themselves over less. Some people kill their kids over less. The fact that she has survived at all and brought children out of this with her… is phenomenal.
I hope very much that the society she lives in will learn from this.
It’s been said that at least he didn’t kill her. Well, physically, no, but emotionally and spiritually he was doing a pretty good job of slowly, and excruciatingly painfully, killing her inner life. And he wasn’t doing a good job of supporting her physical life (no sunlight!?! No medical care?!? She could have died in childbirth!!! ).
This monster will never be able to undo this harm. How could he? By saying “sorry”?! “Sorry cannot undo 24+ years of torture. There is no way he could make this up to her, there is no compensation he can give for her loss . Not to mention, the life he condemned three children to, and God only knows what else.
In time God will judge him, and he won’t be able to get out of that judgment by saying “I meant well”.
Calm Down… you obviously don’t know what you’re talking about… you haven’t taken any advice and read up on your facts before getting all heavy with people on this forum… haha considering you didn’t even know that he confessed to his horrific!! crimes.
Seriously, you’re an attention seeker trying to sound intelligent, get a grip.
Great that Kerstins condition has improved…
Hans Pijl thanks for the great news for it was very hard for me to take it in that the poor girl is dying at the dawn of her life. How I wish she lives because she is a great pillar in the mother’s life, her first-born. Secondly, she has suffered the longest time with her mother in the dungeon. She must live so as to be able to tell this tale together as they suffered. I know when all the four get better, they will put their memories together and publish their suffering and perhaps what they write will save many from a similar situations.
Dear Lord save Kerstin’s life.
@ calm down: Yes, true….It’s very possible that I might be accused of rape tomorrow as you suggest. There’s one huge difference though…..They’re not going to find a freaking cellar with 8 steel doors and 4 people in it below my house!
Yes, Alice..Pretty good news. Although there are also rumours today that the swine sexually abused Kerstin as well as her mother. Something I was already afraid of. I’m hoping it isn’t true. And yes, she must live because of all of those reasons…But the best reason I can think of for her to keep living is that fact that she IS the reason that Fritzl has been exposed. Would be such a pity for her to die. So I just keep hoping, and Kerstin will keep breathing.
Calm Down:
To suggest there is a possibility that 11-year-old Elisabeth seduced her father and that Fritzl is taking everything upon himself in order not to complicate her life, is preposterous.
You are the one who apparently doesn’t “know anything.” Although your arguments about false accusations of rape and false confessions could be considered in situations where there is LACK OF EVIDENCE—they are certainly not applicable to this case.
I have to wonder if you might be a sexual abuser yourself… or perhaps you are covering for one.
Calm down is obviously a skilled and trained defense lawyer. I would not be surprised if he were Rudolf Mayer (Josef Fritzl’s defense lawyer) who is covertly seeking out reactions from the public (from whom a jury would be selected) to try to win his case. In fact, in order to win his case, he doesn’t need to do anything more than plant seeds of doubt in the juror’s minds (a la “Elisabeth Fritzl MAY have been lying, she MAY have seduced her father, she MAY have wanted to be chained, imprisoned, raped and left to die for 24 years, etc”). Personally, while I generally don’t believe in vigilante justice, I think it would be a contribution to society if somebody put a bullet in Mayer’s head - don’t need to kill him, just leave him permanently brain-damaged or with spinal cord injury that leaves him quadriplegic and unable to control bowel and bladder function.
Amity:
Calm Down might be a lawyer or a lawyer wanna-be. However, he/she doesn’t appear to be all that “skilled and trained.” I think you’re giving him/her too much credit.
But, nevertheless, defense attorneys are necessary—for all of us. You never know when you might need one. You seem to be confusing Rudolf Mayer with the criminal he represents. Mayer’s job is to defend Fritzl to the best of his ability. You can’t fault him for that.
Elisabeth’s issue sounds like colonisation, does it reside in colour?. Is a certain race evil?
What, Lwazi?
In an attempt to answer Lwazi, as far as I understand the question: No, I do not think race has anything to do with “being evil” per say. I think every race has had its moments of agressive behaviour over history. Even certain tribes of the American/Canadian Indian (throughout history usually viewed as the victim rather than the agressor) have oppressed other tribes (like the Inuit) over time. So I don’t think you can label a certain race with “evilness”. In the end, we are all Homo Sapiens.
Lwazi’s comment DOES however stir up a different angle to view this WITHIN the human race as a whole. And that is the difference between men and women. Fritzl is a man, and throughout the history of rape, violence, murder and so on and so forth, you quite clearly get the distinct feeling that the agressor is a male, 9 out of 10 times. I have rarely heard of a serial killer, a rapist, a child molester or a pedophile that is female. And more often than not the whole situation is inspired by or driven by sexual desire of some sort. I feel I can say this because I am a man myself….(Women: You are off the hook on this one…
How do other guys feel about this? Time to look down our pants and get control over our penis? Sounds crude but there might be a lot of truth in it.
I suggest that one of the problems we have here may be our tendancy to see criminals such as this as fellow human beings. How much monstrosity will it take before we recognize, accept, and then really start dealing with the facts? You cannot solve a problem until you see it for what it is.
If he is guilty as accused, this creature is NOT a “MAN”!
To say that he is, is an insult to men. He is also by no means a “DAD”, that is a disgrace to the term “DAD”.
If he hadn’t been released back into society after his first rape conviction, and expected to behave like a MAN, then this poor woman would have had a chance at a normal, happy life from an early age and may have found a real MAN to be a DAD for her kids! The law had an opportunity to protect this girl and it failed her.
Now we see the consequences. How many more consequences are we simply not yet seeing!?
Laws all too frequently fail to protect human society, and lean to much on the side of the monster. If monsters can be “rehabilitated” fine, let them be so in a way that stops placing the public at risk. If they have problems for which they deserve some kind of pity or treatment, that is THEIR problem, not everyone else’s.
And anyone who suggests that an 11 year old girl would “seduce” her much older father, and then as a teen twist his arm into locking her up into a tiny sound proofed (why the need for bothering with sound proofing?!) dungeon for 24 years where she would never see the light of day, never see any of her other family or friends, and go through multiple pregnancies and deliveries alone without even another woman to talk to (even by phone!) is in serious need of a good discussion with a PhD… for even thinking that! And even if that were possible, the monster would still be a monster for not giving her a very firm “NO” and for not getting her HELP! A real “MAN” would never have given in to such a thing if it were possible, men CAN say “no”, and I doubt he was a “pushover” in any sense! And don’t tell me she overpowered him… There is no excuse. This is evil.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he had this planned before he ever had kids! It further would not surprise me if it was part of his motive for having kids. I put nothing past a creature capable of this evil. I don’t want to believe that any creature is capable of these things, but reality doesn’t act according to what I personally would like to believe!
Hans,
The cellar in Fritzl’s house is not a proof of rape. Incest is not rape.
The man lived a double life and lied to everyone(?) for at least 24 years. What makes you think that now he is telling the truth?
Anita,
How do you know when and how the incest began? Elisabeth says that she was raped when she was 11 years old, but I’m asking once again: can you prove that it really began when she says it did, and can you prove the accusation of rape?
Anyone can say that she was raped (and way too many do), but (unfortunately?) there has to be some substantial evidence in order to prove it.
What reasons do you have to blindly trust in Elisabeth’s words? Why are you so eager to close the case? Are you afraid that something else might come up?
Calm down, you sound extremely arrogant writing about the Fritzl case, it also seems you have the innate ability to manipulate people, it’s in your tone… Do you control the people closest to you in your life? You sound like a pretty dangerous person actually..
I think deep down, you know exactly what happened, she didn’t ask for it, she didn’t want to live in those conditions.. come on.. you’re completely off track. You say we’re assuming it happened a certain way, and how do we know? But your assumptions and wikipedia facts don’t really make you sound on top of your game.
I think you should get with the program and get off the forum, as most people are more concerned with Elisabeth and her childrens wellbeing.. no personal attacks here, just an observation.
Kirsty,
The question of who I am is irrelevant to this discussion. For all I know you might be a man and a serial killer, but it is not in your personality that I am most interested, but in finding out what really happened in Fritzl’s case. Therefore, if you consider me dangerous and feel manipulated by my comments, then perhaps you should realize that it is not my fault. I don’t feel myself manipulated in any way, why do you?
The title of this topic is: “Elisabeth Fritzl “MENTALLY and physically FRAIL”. There seems to be a universal consensus on the fact that she is not healthy. Now, the question is: why almost everyone takes for granted words of a MENTALLY ILL person?
No doubt Calm Down is extremely manipulative. He twists words and facts to make black appear white. It is fairly revolting. That said, Josef Fritzl seems to fit the criteria for psychosocial personality disorder, which would be mean there is no possibility whatsoever of rehabilitation. A personality disorder, however, does not prevent a person from having free will. In sum, I believe that Fritzl has a personality disorder, but he also chose his actions carefully, freely, and willfully.
Calm down, you are alone in calling Elisabeth Fritzl mentally ill. Others have commented on how mentally strong she must have been to withstand decades of torture. Instead, people have observed that she is mentally and physically frail. You are alone in your vigorous defense of Josef Fritzl and stand with Josef Fritzl in your vigorous persecution of Elisabeth Fritzl. Why is that?
Calm Down,
What is most amusing about you, is you defend Mr. Fritzl because we can’t know for sure anything about him, but then you were so quick to pass judgement on me when all you know about me is a short post on a message board.
It just so happens that one of the causes most important to me in this world today is that of unfairly convicted persons. My biggest hero in the world is a professor named David Protess, who works at Northwestern University in Chicago. Protess gained my eternal respect and admiration because he dedicates a large portion of his life/career to looking into cases of those he believes were wrongfully convicted, either because they were innocent or didn’t receive a fair trial. I highly recommend his book, A Promise of Justice, if you’re into the subject. It was actually my deep passion for those who are wrongfully convicted that lead me to complete my pre-law program in college, hoping that maybe I could try and improve the system from within since it bothered me so much. Hell, I’ve even written term papers for my Philosophy of Tolerance course about the prejudices against ex-convicts. And I was one of the few students in my school to actively protest to having a pro-death-penalty speaker at our graduation. I HATE capital punishment. So maybe you should take your own advice, and not speak out against people you know nothing about.
I made my statement about this case, because that is what this comment option is for. I’m allowed to have and speak on an opinion if I think this man is guilty or not. I think he is, from everything I’ve read. Does that mean I would take what I know right now and toss him in prison for life if I had that power? Of course not. In case you hadn’t noticed, this is not a courtroom, and I am neither judge or jury. Hell, I don’t even live on the same continent as this man.
From the facts of the case that has been released from the police and hospital, it is my opinion that this man is guilty. And I still maintain that it’s ridiculous to argue against the rape charges, considering all the other evidence in this case thus far. Your stating that a person shouldn’t judge another unless they KNOW they are guilty suggests that a person can only think another guilty if they witnessed said crime. If that were true, the number of crimes that would go uncharged is insane. Most rapists don’t commit their crimes in front of a party. Are you suggesting that the world should never believe a woman who accuses a man of rape, just because sometimes a woman will lie or falsely accuse? What would be the motivation for speaking out, in that case, if the woman knew that everyone would just assume she was lying? Especially in the case of girls or boys who were molested as children and only gain the courage to speak out as adults, when the physical evidence of the violation has long since disappeared. I’m sorry, but it’s just ridiculous and unfair to victims to say that.
P.S. If you look at my post more closely, you will see that I never once said anything about what should happen to Mr. Fritzl in terms of punishment, etc. I only stated why I personally think he is guilty.
Amity,
“[...] he twists words and facts to make black appear white.”
It appears that you live in a world of binary oppositions: black and white, good and bad, “us” and “them”. Yours is a world of fairy tales, of primitive and unidimensional characters that lack psychological depth.
Look, not very long ago almost everyone “knew” that the Earth was the center of Universe. To think otherwise was considered to be “monstrous”, “devilish”. Then men began to question it: first just one single man, then came others. Their theories were prohibited and condemned by the Church, many “confessed” that they were wrong, many were burned alive for something that you consider today as an undeniable fact of life: it’s not the Sun that revolves around the Earth, but vice versa. It took centuries for the mankind to realize it thanks to the efforts of a few men who did not care about what the majority thought.
Now, I don’t pretend to discover some transcendential truth that will change the world. I just question something that is not as simple as you want it to be and do not care about the opinion of majority. You already suggested that for this I deserve to be shot.
Walla,
Was it you who called me “a creep” and qualified my comments as “disgusting”? Is it your way of having an intelligent discussion?
I am not the one who tries to shut up my opponents. Look at some recent posts in this topic where it was suggested that I am a “sexual abuser” who “vigorously persecutes” Elisabeth and should leave this blog. Moreover, one user thinks that I should be shot for my comments.
Calm Down,
I said the words “creep” and “disgusting”, not in reference to you stating your opinion, but because the way you posted came across as a person who was just trying to get a rise out of people just for the sake of starting an argument, which I found distasteful considering the content of this article. I do actually apologize for that. You’re right- there’s never a good reason for name-calling. And I most certainly would never suggest that you’re a sexual abuser or anything of the like.
But I truely don’t understand your position in regards to the rape accusations. Sure, none of us can KNOW. But then the only ones who CAN are Elisabeth and her father, maybe their children. You say that both Elisabeth and Josef’s words aren’t enough. Are you suggesting that a jury or judge shouldnt’ find a man guilty of rape without a third witness? And if so, how could a system that disregards all victims’ and suspects’ testimonies in such a way be any better than the way the judicial system is now? I very strongly believe the rights of the convicted and want justice for them, but I also believe in the rights of real victims and want justice for THEM.
Calm Down:
Your sanctimonious, condescending comments and questions are beginning to bore me. But you’re welcome to post as many as you wish.
After all, I encourage and appreciate “hearing” everyone’s points of view—from the brilliant to the asinine.
Walla,
The only thing I am suggesting is that all members of Fritzl family undergo very thorough psychiatric evaluation by different specialists in the field. Also, I suggest that every member of Fritzl family should be interviewed on the day-to-day basis by the teams of specially trained criminal investigators and clinical psychologists.
Anita,
Well, I’m getting kind of bored myself and don’t mind if you change the subject of conversation.
Hi all,
This is going to sound really mundane, but this horror of horrors has kept me awake and wondering. I just simply cannot begin to imagine the depth of this family’s entire fragility. To the point where I launch back into thinking about the practical, everyday chores that the rest of us do without sparing much thought about. Like washing clothes. And drying them.
Hi Smithy:
I too have been losing sleep over this “horror of horrors” and have been vividly imagining myself in Elisabeth’s place… locked in a dungeon for 24 years!; giving birth to 7 children within its sound-proof walls; being repeatedly raped by my own father; and on and on it goes.
As such, I’ve come to realize I need to distance myself from this “story”… at least for the time being.
So… new (likely less horrific and more mundane) blog posts will be coming soon.
@Calm Down : What you said about the whole case makes me think that may be deep inside, you cannot tolerate the horror of this story so you try to rationalize things by trying to find the tiny detail that unexpectedly turns the whole story upside down and if there is not such a detail you don’t give up , you can always persuade yourself that maybe Elizabeth asked for it , so as conclusion she did not suffer that much (the world seems a better place this way, doesn’t it?)
Rape is indeed difficult to prove in most situations but to use the argument of being rational and detached to place the victim next to the offender in this extreme case is gruesome , arrogant , naive and dangerous at the same time. No, I am sorry but in this case the victim did not ask for it and we know it for sure. She tried to kill herself, she ran away, was forced to come back and then locked up in a dark cell. She resisted at the beginning but , think a while for God’s sake. An abused child, sends constantly messages by its behavior that something is going wrong, everyone turns a blind eye, the child does not dare to speak up , and how would she, when “impartial, rational” commentators like you tend for the sake of “justice” to doubt her from the beginning? She said that her father had in some way chosen her and this is a pattern in child abuse cases, one child is victimized while the rest have a more “normal” life. Her sisters went on holiday with mother while Elizabeth was not allowed to, cause her “dad” had other plans for her. So when your life is like this from the age of 11, think about it, this is already too much for a child to handle with no adult help at all. In the end, she may even think that this was her fate. If she quit at a certain point, excuse me but there are limits in human strength. She kept saying NO, NO, NO, NO, NO and NO for many years, in many ways and even after 24 years in the cell , the first thing she did when she got out and met with the police officers was to accuse her father and be given the promise that she would never had to see him again. That was her saying NO once more and for good. Legal procedures is another matter and they will folllow their course as it happens with every crime. But do you seriously doubt that Elizabeth did not want to spend her life like that? Tied with a chain, behind eigh